OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

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AtariZoll
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Re: OIDS hard disk versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:13 pm

So, nobody plays this seriously ? Why I'm bothering ? :D
Anyway, I fixed more things, so tomorrow next update. And if no one finds problem(s), I will finish with.
There is manual available online:
http://www.xavagus.com/Products/OIDSMan ... ePlay.html
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Re: OIDS hard disk versions for test

Postby AtariCrypt » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:45 pm

What? Nooooooo!! Keep going my good man - I'll be playing some more of this, but possibly not until Friday.
You're doing amazing work!!
:cheers:

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Re: OIDS hard disk versions for test

Postby leech » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:07 am

Ha, I'm pretty sure this is one of the "Exclusive on ST and bad ass games!" It wasn't ported to anything else except the mac, and that was many years later. Surprised there aren't more people in this thread saying 'yes please!'

Unfortunately for me, my 'Atari Time' has all been toward trying to fix my Falcon's setup. Ever since I got my CT60e, I've had to try to get MiNT to be happy... almost there.

Then I'll be playing the hell out of this!

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Re: OIDS hard disk versions for test

Postby dma » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:29 am

AtariZoll, you know that getting recognition is a not short term thing when it comes to ATARI activities. ;)
I haven't got the occasion to play your version yet, but what you describe in the thread is once again super enhancement, so congrats for this idea and realisation.

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Re: OIDS hard disk versions for test

Postby spacedmonkeys » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:34 am

Well, I'm interested in this, but don't as yet have a hard drive / ultrasatan... so keep going, great project :)

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:45 am

There are floppy versions too in latest links.
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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby Desty » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:09 pm

Since the kids came into existence, there is no space in my small place to set up the Ataris, but I'll definitely give this a run in Hatari on the weekend. Still hoping you will do a livestream/Youtube recording of your workflow :D
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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariCrypt » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:34 pm

Peter, along with what's already been mentioned, is there anything else you are looking for help on?
I'm hoping to get time tomorrow so looking where you've not might help speed things up? Can't wait for tomorrow - I love 25fps Oids! :-)

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:04 pm

This is not about some recognition. It's just that it takes plenty of time. So, if some people can do easier part - testing, that will make process faster, giving me more time for tracing, coding ... Game is pretty much complex. and as I see can be played in different ways.

Before start to play/test, don't forget to DL last versions :D :
http://atari.8bitchip.info/TestMe/OIDMPRE4.ZIP
Archive contains ST floppy image and folder for hard disk run.
Changes: fixed shield and fuel consumption. More copy protection removed.

HAGA version with better framerate, trainer options here:
http://atari.8bitchip.info/SCRSH/oids.html
Includes modded and original game. Copy protection override is done in 2 ways. And it works well on Falcon.

As I see, this game is worth to play without trainer options - then will be most fun, because requires good tactic, skill in controlling ship, using shields, fuel smart ....

YT video, where can see how to refuel on planetoid:
https://youtu.be/dtA8XQ_KHIQ
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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby leech » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:42 pm

So my brother and I played a bit of OIDS last night. He used to be good, but apparently he used to always play it with a keyboard, whereas i am still semi-okay because I used to play it with a joystick. One thing I have noticed it is still really hard to do just one bullet. I'll need to play the original speed again to see if that's the way it was before, I ended up killing a lot of the people I was trying to rescue because of the minimum of two shots. Then again, maybe it's a side effect of playing it on the TT?

Awesome work! so smooth!

Impossible(?) request time: Jag controller support? There is a built in key configuration, but I haven't tested if it'll read in Jaguar controller inputs. That could be very useful in this game, since it has various buttons for other things (that and I think this game screams to be played with a gamepad!)

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby leech » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:23 pm

Tested this on the Falcon (030 and 060), specifically the version here; http://atari.8bitchip.info/dwnld.php?get=OIDSMHD.ZIP.

To load it up, I held down control so only HDDriver was loaded (version 10.03) and the loading screen looks like it's been split up into several sections, and overlapping. The level selection screen works fine, and I did test just trying to assign the key bindings to the Jaguar controller (sadly that didn't work, but I would have been amazed if it had). But then once trying to launch it, the game goes all sorts of crazy.

In 060 mode it just crashed with an exception error right before the level selection screen.

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:32 pm

leech wrote:Tested this on the Falcon (030 and 060), specifically the version here; http://atari.8bitchip.info/dwnld.php?get=OIDSMHD.ZIP.
To load it up, I held down control so only HDDriver was loaded (version 10.03) and the loading screen looks like it's been split up into several sections, and overlapping. The level selection screen works fine, and I did test just trying to assign the key bindings to the Jaguar controller (sadly that didn't work, but I would have been amazed if it had). But then once trying to launch it, the game goes all sorts of crazy.
In 060 mode it just crashed with an exception error right before the level selection screen.


I know that it works not good on Falcon, and it is mentioned in this thread too. What works good on Falcon is :
http://atari.8bitchip.info/dwnld.php?get=OIDS.ZIP
Probably not with CT60.

leech wrote:So my brother and I played a bit of OIDS last night. He used to be good, but apparently he used to always play it with a keyboard, whereas i am still semi-okay because I used to play it with a joystick. One thing I have noticed it is still really hard to do just one bullet. I'll need to play the original speed again to see if that's the way it was before, I ended up killing a lot of the people I was trying to rescue because of the minimum of two shots. Then again, maybe it's a side effect of playing it on the TT?
Awesome work! so smooth!
Impossible(?) request time: Jag controller support? There is a built in key configuration, but I haven't tested if it'll read in Jaguar controller inputs. That could be very useful in this game, since it has various buttons for other things (that and I think this game screams to be played with a gamepad!)

Original game reads controls 10x per second. Modded does it 12.5x - when running on PAL system. On TT it is 15x per sec. I just added simple code to make read in only every second cycle. (original read speed is 12x per sec on TT). You can try both versions - they are in release linked above.
I don't have TT. what can do is to accelerate Steem Debugger, to get similar speed to TT's. Will see what can do. What I noticed is that it is hard to fire Novabomb with joystick. But all it will need some serious rewrites of original code, most lilely.
Jag controller - what the Hell is it ? :D I really never seen some, maybe only on picture. Actually, not sure what all it has. Is there some analogue joystick, or just buttons ? Problem is that doing support for analogue needs that I can test it myself. If it is only button usage, that can be done in reasonable time, and without real HW.
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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby leech » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:45 pm

ha, no analog on the Jaguar controller, though I believe the port supports it? I don't even know if any actual analog sticks came out for the extended port on the STe/Falcon. But since it has standard 3 buttons up top with a direction pad, plus a pause/option button, it'd be perfect for Oids, which needs Thrust, Right, Left, Fire, NovaBomb, Shields, Shield Recharger.

It's too bad the Jagpad/Powerpad doesn't just send some keyboard signals, it'd pretty much just work out of the box for games like Oids where you can re-assign the keys.

Hmm, I wonder if Steem / Hatari can utilize the USB -> DB15 adapter I have for the Jaguar Controller. I know it works well in VirtualJag. I'll give more versions a try and see how they play. It's almost perfect on the TT. One comment from my brother, "Holy crap it loads fast!" We used to play it on the 8mhz mode for Mega STe from floppy back in the day.

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:58 pm

Played through several levels. If there are a lot of enemies + several of their air bombs and then I shoot a lot of bullets, game seems to slow down quite a bit, which isn't actually that bad, to survive. Also, if I speed up a bit more, it seems like the speed increase isn't quite linear, it suddenly increases a lot. Note, I'm not complaining about these, they're just observations. The game works really well, also with EmuTOS, thanks!

As to JagPads, aren't they same as STE pads? Hatari support's that, and you can also do some host joystick mapping.

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:04 am

leech wrote:....
It's too bad the Jagpad/Powerpad doesn't just send some keyboard signals, it'd pretty much just work out of the box for games like Oids where you can re-assign the keys.
Hmm, I wonder if Steem / Hatari can utilize the USB -> DB15 adapter I have for the Jaguar Controller. I know it works well in VirtualJag. I'll give more versions a try and see how they play. It's almost perfect on the TT. One comment from my brother, "Holy crap it loads fast!" We used to play it on the 8mhz mode for Mega STe from floppy back in the day.

As I know there are 2 analogue inputs on STE type extended joystick ports. That was popular in those times - X-Y axes of joystick.
Hardly could map it in IKBD signals - there is no place for more inputs on chip. + no more free output bit combinations. And as I remember, extra port read is faster. Will look into it - it is supported in Steem. Would be good that you say me exact key mapping - so what game commands to put on which Jagpad buttons.

Eero Tamminen wrote:Played through several levels. If there are a lot of enemies + several of their air bombs and then I shoot a lot of bullets, game seems to slow down quite a bit, which isn't actually that bad, to survive. Also, if I speed up a bit more, it seems like the speed increase isn't quite linear, it suddenly increases a lot. Note, I'm not complaining about these, they're just observations. The game works really well, also with EmuTOS, thanks!
As to JagPads, aren't they same as STE pads? Hatari support's that, and you can also do some host joystick mapping.


Yes, it slows down when there is lot of it on screen. From 25 to 17 fps, and may be even to 12.5 when is really tight - myself did not seen it or gone so far yet. Measure against it is faster computer, or setting emulator on higher speed :D More seriously, I was in dilemma about to add special speed control for such cases, and even started thread about it here. But concluded that in this case slowness is good for player. So, simpler solution seems better.
Similar is with high speed. It can go really fast, actually more than 2x faster than in original. But again, that may be good for player. Just need to get used on it. Goal was not to keep all speeds as in original, only those which really affect gameplay, playability. And it is not easy to do it accurately without serious changes in whole code. For instance, gravity works simply by adding 3 to vertical speed in every game's main loop cycle. Since it is now 2.5x faster (or 3x on NTSC, VGA) I just corrected it to add 1 . Doing accurate ratios would mean that need to change whole speed control code, variable types, and there is a lot of it.
As you probably already know, I'm stuck at Steem Debugger :D , and there is even JagPad support. As I know, they - STE pad and JagPad are not 100% same functionally, but I'm sure that there are people here which know it better and can explain.
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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby leech » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:58 pm

I am pretty sure the only difference between the STE PowerPad and the JagPad are the colours. I ordered the PowerPad just now, and I can test on the Jag/Falcon/STe to see if there are any actual differences.

On the other hand I also have one of the Jaguar Pro Controllers, which the only difference between it and the normal one are some extra buttons which are actually mapped to the keypad ones. So while they don't electronically have more buttons, they have more physical ones (if that makes sense).

For Oids specifically, since it has a built-in key mapper, I guess all you'd need to figure out is how to get it to recognize any signals from the enhanced port. But getting some sort of wrapper for some of the other HAGA conversions you have would be awesome!

If it would help you, I'd totally be wiling to pay for the Raphnet adapter (USB to DB15) and order you a Jaguar controller.

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby Desty » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:05 pm

:cheers: I'll chip in too if you need any other equipment to make more magic :D
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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby leech » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:09 pm

I just checked the Pro Controller prices, and they're still pretty terrible (from 130-600USD!), but normal Jaguar ones seem to be 11-40USD, and then the USB adapter is going for 30.

I ordered myself one of the power pads (that was more than I should have paid...) so I can tell for sure if it's different. I'll test it on my Jaguar and Falcon/STe/Steem/Hatari.

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:06 am

leech wrote:I am pretty sure the only difference between the STE PowerPad and the JagPad are the colours. I ordered the PowerPad just now, and I can test on the Jag/Falcon/STe to see if there are any actual differences.
On the other hand I also have one of the Jaguar Pro Controllers, which the only difference between it and the normal one are some extra buttons which are actually mapped to the keypad ones. So while they don't electronically have more buttons, they have more physical ones (if that makes sense).
For Oids specifically, since it has a built-in key mapper, I guess all you'd need to figure out is how to get it to recognize any signals from the enhanced port. But getting some sort of wrapper for some of the other HAGA conversions you have would be awesome!
If it would help you, I'd totally be wiling to pay for the Raphnet adapter (USB to DB15) and order you a Jaguar controller.

Thanks for your kind offer, but I think that it is not necessary. I can do all job in Steem Debugger. I never played with some of game pads, and I'm sure that will never be comfortable with them. I have pretty large hands too. What would be interesting for me is some so called paddle with analogue sensors (joystick), and I looked STE advanced port specs - it supports it. But such ones are certainly more expensive. and question is how many STE, Falcon games support analogue inputs. Btw. there is lightpen input too. Maybe I will get some USB analogue joystick - they should be not expensive. Although, don't see is it remapped to STE port in Steem. If not, we have Steven Seagal to resolve it :D
Now about what is possible and what not, with how much effort:
I looked specs, and whole thing is reading specific port addresses. What is btw. even better/simpler than dealing with IKBD chip of Atari ST.
Wrapper is good idea, but it will work with only small %-age of games, max some 15% - those which read kb. , joystick via TOS functions. Most of games using own code for read IKBD chip - for kb. , joystick, mouse. And OIDS does it too. So, to expand some game what uses own code for input read, to work with JagPads or any controller attached to STE extended ports it is necessary to trace it's machine code, find all places where it detects some input action with it's IKBD chip reading code, and add there + code for reading JagPad . That must be done separately for every game what we need to enhance, and which has own input read code.
With those reading via TOS functions wrapper will work, but as said, there is not much. Before going into it, would be good to know some candidates for ..
And pls. gimme short list of which commands in OIDS you want to map on JagPad in OIDS. It would be fire + 4 directions, and some keyb. commands, I guess.
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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby Desty » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:11 am

Is it possible to program the IKBD to automatically translate input from the Jagpad into joystick/keyboard commands so you don't have to manually patch so many places? If so, that remapping code could be reused for other games.
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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:09 am

Desty wrote:Is it possible to program the IKBD to automatically translate input from the Jagpad into joystick/keyboard commands so you don't have to manually patch so many places? If so, that remapping code could be reused for other games.

Of course it is not possible at all.
What is possible is to add extension to TOS, what will do it. But as said, that will be usable only in SW what reads input via TOS functions. And in case of games for Atari ST it's low percentage.
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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AnthonyJ » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:52 pm

AtariZoll wrote:What would be interesting for me is some so called paddle with analogue sensors (joystick), and I looked STE advanced port specs - it supports it. But such ones are certainly more expensive. and question is how many STE, Falcon games support analogue inputs


Almost nothing supported that. The only one I know of is the Falcon game Moonspeeder which did supported analogue joystick (Xav got it working with my PC joystick if I remember correctly). Don't think anything ever used the light-pen, rotary controller etc (T2K on the Jag supports the use of a digital rotary controller, but obviously there was never a commercially released controller to support it). Quite a few games supported the standard jagpad/powerpad though, especially post Jag launch when they became much more common.

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby leech » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:51 pm

Desty wrote:Is it possible to program the IKBD to automatically translate input from the Jagpad into joystick/keyboard commands so you don't have to manually patch so many places? If so, that remapping code could be reused for other games.


I had asked this very thing in another thread. Basically we'd need a hardware mod to somehow pass the signals from the enhanced ports through the IKBD interface, much in the same way CosmosEx has the sandwich in there to allow USB keyboards/Mice. Basically, the problem is that the joystick/mouse ports are integrated into the keyboard, and that's where the games expect input to come from, where as the 'enhanced' ports are straight on the motherboard, so software has to make specific calls to them.

I think that's pretty much correct, right?

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby leech » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:01 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Thanks for your kind offer, but I think that it is not necessary. I can do all job in Steem Debugger. I never played with some of game pads, and I'm sure that will never be comfortable with them. I have pretty large hands too. What would be interesting for me is some so called paddle with analogue sensors (joystick), and I looked STE advanced port specs - it supports it. But such ones are certainly more expensive. and question is how many STE, Falcon games support analogue inputs. Btw. there is lightpen input too. Maybe I will get some USB analogue joystick - they should be not expensive. Although, don't see is it remapped to STE port in Steem. If not, we have Steven Seagal to resolve it :D
Now about what is possible and what not, with how much effort:
I looked specs, and whole thing is reading specific port addresses. What is btw. even better/simpler than dealing with IKBD chip of Atari ST.
Wrapper is good idea, but it will work with only small %-age of games, max some 15% - those which read kb. , joystick via TOS functions. Most of games using own code for read IKBD chip - for kb. , joystick, mouse. And OIDS does it too. So, to expand some game what uses own code for input read, to work with JagPads or any controller attached to STE extended ports it is necessary to trace it's machine code, find all places where it detects some input action with it's IKBD chip reading code, and add there + code for reading JagPad . That must be done separately for every game what we need to enhance, and which has own input read code.
With those reading via TOS functions wrapper will work, but as said, there is not much. Before going into it, would be good to know some candidates for ..
And pls. gimme short list of which commands in OIDS you want to map on JagPad in OIDS. It would be fire + 4 directions, and some keyb. commands, I guess.


Ha, that was always one of the complaints about the Jaguar controller, they are rather large, and they fit well in my hands.

For OIDS' control scheme, it has a built-in 'Change Keys' function. That's why I had guessed that it shouldn't be all that hard to get some function to get the Jag controller to input into it. But yeah, we're back to 'it doesn't go through the IKBD interface. In other threads about it, I think we decided that it'd take something that was software adjustable, then you could do keymapping to the Jag controller. So you could easily do a standard of button mapping for the arrows -> directional pad, Z->A button, X -> B button, C -> C button, then Help -> Pause, Undo -> Option. Then map the number keys 1-0 and * and # to - or = on the keyboard. (or even just use the number pad).

Of course this starts to go off topic here...Also not sure which games that'd use out of the box, and a lot of games didn't accept any sort of keyboard input, and were joystick only.

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:37 pm

leech wrote:I had asked this very thing in another thread. Basically we'd need a hardware mod to somehow pass the signals from the enhanced ports through the IKBD interface, much in the same way CosmosEx has the sandwich in there to allow USB keyboards/Mice. Basically, the problem is that the joystick/mouse ports are integrated into the keyboard, and that's where the games expect input to come from, where as the 'enhanced' ports are straight on the motherboard, so software has to make specific calls to them.
I think that's pretty much correct, right?

Such HW mod is not so simple. IKBD chip should be completely reprogrammed - what is hardly possible. Probably only reasonable way is to do it with some smaller FPGA. But price would be likely high, unless there is lot if people interested.
I think that simplest would be to solve it in MIST.
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